Seeger: 'We shall overcome...'
I first listened to Peter Seeger on a vinyl record as a teenager in Calcutta/ Kolkata. My Baba's best friend (whom we called Sadhan Kaka) had gone abroad with his family ~ and they left us some wonderful music on 33 1/3 r.p.m. discs until they returned from the UK. I was rivetted by the songs of protest and angst that Seeger, Woody Guthrie and others sang.
So, it was a really major thrill when, in 1996, Pete Seeger came to Bangalore, where I now live ~ and sang for us at the Guru Nanak Bhavan. Almost all of us in that audience sang along with him. It was an electrifying evening.
On the morning of that performance, I got lucky. I had an opportunity to interview Seeger. I'd like to share excerpts from that conversation with you.
Deep in my heart, I do
believe…
‘This machine surrounds hate and forces it to surrender…’
ONCE Pete Seeger begins to strum on his banjo with this
unusual inscription on it, he’s easy to believe. For his commitment is to the
small things that make our world tick. And glow. And surrender its baser self.
The little men. The unnoticed acts. The unsaid words. And all the tiny grains
of sand that mould our shores, all the ripples that stir the ocean deep.
It could be when he’s singing in harmony with Arlo Guthrie,
son of the legendary American troubadour Woody Guthrie, at the Royal Albert
Hall in London over ten years ago in the hard-hitting ‘Presidential Rag’ with which Arlo rocked the Nixon administration
over Watergate:
“You say that you
didn’t know that the cats with the bugs were there
And you’d never go along with that kind of
stuff nowhere
But that just isn’t
the point now, that’s the wrong, wrong way to go
If you didn’t know
about that one, then what else don’t you know?”
Or when Seeger’s freewheeling voice, strongly harmonizing
with his grandson Tao Rodriguez onstage at Bangalore’s Guru Nanak Bhavan on
November 14, belts out a universal satire on politicians, ‘The Ross Perot Guide to Answering Embarrassing Questions,’ that
makes you tap your toes, snap your fingers, and lend your voice in chorus: “I lie, I simply boldly falsify/ I look the
other feller in the eye/ And just deny, deny, deny? I lie…”
Yes, the iconoclastic activist of the American 50s and 60s
was recently in Bangalore as part of a four-city
Indian tour that culminated in Calcutta, where
the Rabindra Bharati
University conferred a D.Litt.
(Honoris Causa) degree on the pacifist folk artist who, in December 1963,
captivated a Calcutta
audience of nearly 15,000 at the peak of his popularity. That’s when Pete
Seeger had reluctantly been granted a passport by the US authorities
after being on radio and TV blacklists across the land of milk and honey for 17
years for his championing of the unions, the downtrodden and the leftists. So,
he and his wife Toshi Aline took their two children out of school for a year,
and showed them the shape their world was in. This time round, at 77, his
grassroots wisdom undimmed by age, Pete Seeger looks the world in the eye,
whether he’s addressing a press conference at a Bangalore hotel or doing a jig across the
stage to a children’s ditty at the sing-along concert.
Pete Seeger, whose reputation as a Sixties songwriter rests
on words sung my millions globally, popularized by such voices as Trini Lopez,
The Seekers and the Kingston Trio, is still comfortable with his compositions ~
Where have all the flowers gone, If I had
a hammer, and Turn Turn Turn,
among them. ‘Where have all the flowers gone’ ~ later the title of Seeger’s
musical autobiography ~ was originally a Cossack soldier’s song he chanced upon
in Mikhail Sholokov’s And Quiet Flows the
Don, to which he added two telling phrases: ‘Long time passing’ and ‘When
will they ever learn?’ Even today, the words and melodies of his timeless
paeans to simplicity, his chants of decency and equality, trip easy off the
tongue.
Seeger live: 'If I had a hammer....'
But has the never-say-die high priest of the American
protest song ~ tutored by Woody Guthrie and Huddie ‘Leadbelly’ Ledbetter,
revered by Bob Dylan and Joan Baez ~ been mellowed by the Clinton
administration’s conferring of the National Medal of Arts on him at the Kennedy
centre in 1994? He laughs at the very idea. For you can’t expect Pete Seeger to
conform at any age, not since he dropped out of Harvard University in 1938 to
hit the folk trail in America with a banjo on his shoulder and a dream in his
heart. He overcame odds to become a researcher at the archives of American Folk
Music at the Library of Congress in Washington
DC. But you can’t quite stall a
rolling stone, can you? By 1941, his group, The Almanac Singers, were touring America
in support of the rights of working people. But World War II and a stint in the
US
army in the Pacific zone intervened. His vocal quartet, The Weavers, formed in
1949, soon struck recording gold ~ and fuelled the great American folk revival
of the Fifties and Sixties.
But in the darker times ahead, in the thick of the McCarthy
witch-hunt against the radical left, Seeger was summoned before the House
Committee on Un-American Activities, defied them in song, and was sentenced to
a year in jail. But higher courts granted him a reprieve. He was soon a free
man.
Uncowed, Seeger continued to voice his commitment musically
to causes that made his world turn, turn, turn. Imagine the Sixties in America. The
Vietnam war. The student turmoil on campus. Rev. Martin Luther King’s civil
rights rallies. And the powerful strains of Seeger singing for each cause he
championed. At one of these massive gatherings, Seeger took an obscure
Afro-American hymn written in 1903 and turned it into an international anthem
for freedom. All he did was to replace the words “I shall overcome” in the
original with “We shall overcome.” The rest is history, sung by voices attuned
to the hammer of justice, the bell of freedom, and songs about love among all
people.
Seeger:; 'Where have all the flowers gone?'
This non-conformist crusader, who brooks no cant and can
still hold the high notes, already has 170 albums and 1,700 songs to his
credit. “You know,” he chuckles, “every time a radio station plays one of my
songs, we get a penny in royalties. We aren’t exactly rich, but we are doing
OK.”
Labels sit loosely on him, cubbyholes are an uncomfortable
fit. For Seeger never has ploughed a trodden furrow, whether termed a commie, a
leftist, an organizer, a guru. Or even a folk singer. “Strictly speaking, I’m
not a folk singer,” he reiterates. “People singing the blues are, people
singing gospel songs are. There are 4,000 different languages in the world, I
believe, and as many different kinds of folk songs. To my mind, real folk music
is at home in the kitchen. Or with the mother singing to a child.”
And he sings out his definitions even louder and clearer
with a chuckle, “When the Smithsonian Institute brought out the record, The
American Folk Song Revival, they found that the same song might have been a pop
song at once point in history, or it may have been a folk song. Once everything
goes commercial, a folk song handed down from guitar-picker to guitar-picker
could become a pop song!... As for me, I sing some old songs, some new ones.
Actually, more than singing, my main work has been in writing. In my recent
book, I point out that in most of my songs, I borrowed a melody here, I took
some words and changed them or added to them. So, I’m proud to have been a part
of this folk process.”
In tune with all the answers that are blowing in the wind, does
Seeger ~ who was keen to inspect the Ganga project after mobilizing support for
a cleaner Hudson River, on whose banks he’s lived for years ~ see room for
hope? “I ask you all. Did you expect the Pentagon to leave Vietnam the way
it did,” he quips. “And did you expect Nixon to leave the way he did, after
Watergate? Did you expect the Berlin Wall to come down as peacefully as it did?
Or did you expect to see Mandela as president of South Africa? Well, if you could
not predict those with confidence, how can you say there’s no hope?”
In an open pre-tour letter to friends in India, Seeger
had written: “With my grandson Tao to help me (he takes the lead on many songs
~ my voice is 50 per cent gone), I am trying to tell a story of how some of us
keep hope for the world.”
The prosecution of Pete Seeger: PBS documentary
Yes, every tiny voice, every little mite, every signal of
quiet amidst disquiet counts in Seeger’s world. He spontaneously enchants us with
a song about the vagaries of the English language, its lyrics packing both a
punch and a pun. As you strum along, hum along, sing along with Seeger, you
agree with the optimistic balladeer that seeds of peace can sprout amidst weeds
of war, nurturing causes he now holds dear, such as universal literacy,
population control, and a pollution-free world. Here’s evidence in excerpts
from an interview in Bangalore,
in which Seeger rejects rhetoric for honesty with a twinkle in his eye, a lilt
in his voice and, often enough, a song on his lips:
What made you write your first songs? And what sparks your songs now?
Well, as a kid, I wrote poems…I’ve never really thought of
myself as a songwriter. I wish I were. People like Bob Dylan and Phil Oakes
write song after song. I’m lucky if I get one song written a year. Two or three
maybe. I guess I’m better with tunes than words.
My grandson Tao and I were trying out the idea for a song. I
love to eat sweets and, if I don’t watch out, my belt won’t buckle. So, our song’s
about “Shrinking is progress”… Well, the whole world’s full of human beings and
they’re doubling every 42 years. One of these days (chuckling), we’ll realize that shrinking is progress.
Have you done songs about the population boom?
I’ve tried to do one. It’s not a very good one. (Tapping on his knees to keep the beat).
It goes like this:
We’ll all be
a-doubling, a-doubling, a-doubling
We’ll all be
a-doubling in 42 years
2 and 2 makes 4, 2
times 4 is 8,
2 times 8 is 16,
And the hour is
getting late…
Double ten more
generations
You could have
children more than a million
Double just another 20
generations
You could have
children more than a trillion…
Incidentally, have people in India
ever heard of Nechai Viravaidyn of Bangkok?
If somebody in Bangkok
wants to buy a condom, they ask for a Nechai. He’s become the television
personality of family planning. He holds balloon contests, he has jokes of all
sorts, he hands out prizes to taxi drivers who sell condoms. He’s even
persuaded the Thai government to hand out agricultural and family planning
information together. So, when a farmer comes to get seeds, he gets the
message: To be a prosperous farmer, you don’t neeed a lot of sons…
What was it like to share special moments with Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly?
Well, (the commanding black troubadour) Leadbelly was older
than I. I was 22 when we met, he was in his
50s. I think he was kind of amused to see a young white boy trying to learn his
music, the blues. But we did end up giving concerts together. Tragically, he
died six months before his song, Goodnight
Irene, became the biggest hit of 1950.
To Woody, too, I must have seemed like a strange kid. He
once said: “Seeger doesn’t smoke, he doesn’t drink, he doesn’t chase girls…”
But he must have liked my banjo playing, so he allowed me to tag along with
him. We sang for over two years before World War II. Then we started a little
organization called Peoples’ Songs. It eventually became a magazine called Sing Out, which was eight pages then,
now it’s nearly 200. Woody would be surprised! We print Jewish and American
Indian folk songs. Bob Dylan’s and Phil Oakes’ songs… I’ve had a column in the
magazine for 50 years now.
Seeger: 'Waist-deep in the big muddy'
Is your column about the causes you sing about?
I’d say our main cause is to persuade people to turn off the
TV and do something themselves. I wish every TV set had a message on it: “Life
was meant to be lived, not to watch other people live.’
I’m really interested in the literacy programme in India,
especially in Kerala. Not just me. There’s a 16-year-old Brazilian boy I met in
New Delhi,
Alexander Ferraz Tabor, who’s a computer freak. We came up with a plan. We’re
going to try and persuade computer companies to give prizes to any village that
can show it is 100 per cent literate. If all the old people, young people, men
and women can read 30 words a minute, the village will get a prize. A computer!
Then, everybody in the world will learn to read and write.
Now, I have a question. Do they have to know English to use
a computer? Or can they use it in their own language?
That’s possible in a number of Indian languages…
Maybe we should reach Sam Pitroda, who got a telephone to
every Indian village… Alexander’s on the Internet. He just might be able to
pull together young people in different countries. It could become a world
movement (Enthusiastically) If any of
your readers pick up the idea, they could get in touch with Alexander…
Do you sense a song brewing about it?
Perhaps someone here should make up a song. There’s a great
temptation to say you have to be rich and powerful to do anything. (Fervently) One of my main purposes in
life is to persuade people that’s not true.
You know, when Woody wrote his song This land is my land, this land is your land, it wasn’t published
until years later. But it went from guitar-picker to guitar-picker until the
whole country knows it now. It’s almost one of the best-known songs in America, but it
was never promoted by a big company, it never made a lot of money. It did get
him into the school songbooks, which helped. It got into summer camps, into
little churches, and people like me took it around and got the crowd singing.
Woody had the genius of simplicity. While a lot of people writing songs have
too many words, he knew how to use few words to hit the nail on the head.
That’s not easy.
What was it like to hit the folk music trail in 1938, when you opted
out of Harvard?
I could have been killed a couple of times. I was trying to
ride the freight trains without knowing how, but I survived and I saw my
country without having money. I’d advise young people to travel when they’re
young. It’s very hard to travel when you have a family.
My wife Toshi really is a heroine for the family. She kept
them together while I was all over the country. One year, I was away 75 per
cent of the time, traveling.
Did your experiences while traveling chime in with the ideas you set
out with?
Sure, I discovered that working people may speak different
languages and have different religions, but their interests are basically the
same. Marx was right: “Workers of the world, unite!’
But ‘unite’ is an over-simplification, perhaps like most
words are. My father, who was a musicologist, used to say: “Beware the
lingocentric predicament!’ Ever hear of that? Well, the ethnocentric predicament
is an anthropological term to explain why you never understand another culture
because you’re always looking at it through your own value system. People who
use words should remember that no two people attach the same exact meaning to a
word. Obviously a house is not the same to an Eskimo as to a Hawaiian, or to a
rich man and a poor man. And words like freedom,
democracy, liberty and folk music all
mean different things to different people.
If I was a better songwriter, I’d write a song about
over-simplification. It reminds me of my father, who said, ‘Truth is a rabbit
in a bramble patch.’ You circle around it, but you can’t actually put your
finger on it.
How did your music contribute to the success of the Hudson
River project?
I encouraged other musicians, hundreds of them, to come
along, including jazz musicians, blue singers, gospel musicians. My grandson
Tao is just one of them. He keeps singing on our sailboat, The Clearwater, to
up to 15,000 children a year, whom he ferries up and down. (Energetically) About one-third of the
money comes from rich people, but two-thirds comes from concerts and festivals.
What about your concert for the Seeds of Peace project for a Middle
Eastern children’s summer camp in New
York?
It all began some ten years ago when some peace-loving Jews
met some peace-loving Arabs. The Arabs went to Syria
or Jordan,
the Jews went to Tel Aviv, where they met some kids longing to come to this
camp. So, they raised the funds and crossed the ocean. Can you imagine the big
job these kids (between 11 and 16) have when they get home: “You mean you slept
in the same room as an enemy?”
Does it feel strange for an anti-establishment person like you to be
recognized by the US
government?
Yes, (laughing aloud),
hilarious!
Did you ever toy with the idea of declining the award?
Well, I never expected it all to happen. Six years ago a
businessman in California,
who liked my music, wrote to me: ‘I think you should get a Kennedy award. Would
you accept it?’ I wrote back: ‘Yes, I would.’ I never thought it would come to
be. I finally met him at the Kennedy Centre banquet hall and asked, “How many
letters did you have to write?” He said, “Over 300. My secretary wrote them.” I
said, “Then your secretary should be here.” One of his letters reached the
movie actor Gregory Peck, who agreed: ‘Seeger may be a radical, but he’s had
some influence.’ (Chuckling). And so
it went, until finally the committee thought: Yeah, we could get away with it.
Looking around, do you sense breezes of hope?
Yes, there’ve been lots of little victories. The Hudson River was one of them. We’re swimming in it again.
About 30 years ago, swimming in the Hudson
was like swimming in a toilet bowl. We’re still working on New York City.
I tell people: If there’s a world in a 100 years, it will
not be ~ to my belief ~ because of any big organization, any big government,
any big church, any big university, any big corporation or anything! It will be
there because of tens of millions, for all I know hundreds of millions, of
little organizations. Small businesses, small churches, small educational
institutions, small publications, small media, small political parties. And
we’ll disagree about so many things, (grinning)
it’ll be hilarious! But we’ll agree about two main things. It’s better to talk
than to shoot, right? And bombs always kill innocent people. Whether it’s
bacteriological or chemical warfare, the victims are always innocent women and
children.
When words fail, and they will fail from time to time, well…
I say: try the arts, pictures, melodies, rhythms, dancing.
You know, there are rather better banjo players in the world
than me, but I always claim I make the best strawberry shortcake. (Shares the secret recipe with the rhythmic
flurry of an action song, smiling through).
(Originally published in Sunday Herald, December 15, 1996)
Lovely interview. Really like the youtube clips you've chosen as background score to the interview with the great Pete 'growing' from youth to maturity.
ReplyDeleteSuper happy that you enjoyed it, Asha. And smiling now that I was able to find the right music cues, despite being a newbie blogger. Lovely to have your feedback in blog-land. Thanks.
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